Seb: 0:00

Welcome to the Tesla Motors Podcast, the show where everything's computer. My name is Seb.

Doug: 0:06

I'm Doug.

Mike: 0:07

And I'm Mike.

Seb: 0:08

On today's episode, we'll cover the current Tesla protests. We'll give you a reaction to Elon's all hands meeting . There's been a cyber Truck recall and Tesla sales in Europe are way down, but we're still holding onto our cars. Episode 73 starts now. Good Lord, guys, I've been gone for a couple of months and the world's on fire. What happened?

Mike: 0:32

minute, hasn't it? You know,

Doug: 0:35

are, strange.

Mike: 0:36

things are heating up.

Seb: 0:38

are showrooms, burning, cyber

Mike: 0:40

Oh yeah.

Seb: 0:41

It's uh, it's looking a little dystopian out there. More so than I'd like.

Mike: 0:44

isn't that what the truck was built for? Yeah.

Doug: 0:48

let me sneak in a little production note. I mentioned, uh, couple episodes before that. It takes me a little bit to get the audio versions out and, , I've been trying to fill in previous audio versions. So if you're listening to the audio version, , , you might notice that this is episode 73, but I managed to get episode 70 up last week though, 71 and 72 went out there, but episode 70, was the last episode that we had Seb on, the most recent episode that we had you,

Mike: 1:13

Yeah, but he is back.

Seb: 1:14

I know. I'm back. I'm back. So given the speed, you edit these Doug, if you're listening to the audio version, happy Thanksgiving.

Mike: 1:22

Oh,

Doug: 1:23

that's what was funny about that one. That was the Thanksgiving episode

Seb: 1:26

I'll be back for that one

Doug: 1:27

just after the cyber cab, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm trying.

Seb: 1:31

That's funny. Well, it's good to see you guys, but seriously I am a little concerned, seeing what's going out there. You know, I had my car for a long time, I've bought it 'cause I believed in the company., what's going on out there?

Mike: 1:45

it's a wild circus to put it mildly., we've got people spray painting cars and trucks. There's, reports of cyber trucks on the lot, being set on fire by Motov cocktails.

Seb: 1:55

Wow.

Mike: 1:57

large nationwide protest yesterday, and I, from what I've read in the news, it's carried over into today. supposedly nonviolent. the leader of it is expressly nonviolent, but nevertheless, it, seems to be getting under the skin of a few people., Elon notwithstanding.

Doug: 2:13

peaceful protest is kind of what this country is about, so I think that's, reasonable But yeah, destroying stuff, destroying property. That's not cool. I prefer the two things don't get conflated, even though people with certain political agendas will conflate the two., I think the peaceful protest is more effective. Certainly. and it's not a crime, right? So

Mike: 2:32

Well, there, there are some , with a podium right now that say it is, and they want to make everybody protesting a, domestic terrorist is the word they're using.

Doug: 2:44

I hope, that's not the route we're going down. people burning, , cars and stuff, that on itself is a crime. Is that terrorism? I don't know., I guess by some definitions it might be, but there are probably enough laws existing to, prosecute those sorts of people, , if you catch them. But, , we can't make protest illegal., the sad thing about it though is that, , yeah, I like my car, and, you know, Teslas have been getting keyed and things like that for years now. Tesla hate has been around for a while. Maybe just the, someone has something nice and I want to destroy it, kind of thing. Since our cars basically have cameras all over them, we've seen plenty of people keying cars and, doing other kind of vandalism, Perhaps from one side of the political spectrum.

Mike: 3:29

I have to say Tesla hate's been a real thing for quite some time. I mean, I've been driving Teslas for almost five years now., But this is the first time that I've had a family member come up and ask me to de-badge the car because they don't feel comfortable with the logo on the car. And I did it. I took off the logos. Anybody that has a clue is gonna know what the car is. But I, I know what they ask is the ask is, this big Chrome logo kind of stands out and they don't want the attention drawn to it that readily.

Seb: 3:59

Yeah,

Mike: 4:00

So

Seb: 4:01

well I think with every protest you have a couple of nuts that take it

Mike: 4:05

Oh, without a doubt,

Seb: 4:07

I guess taking the badges off would prevent those people that have really extreme.

Mike: 4:11

it's a trigger. You don't see the trigger, which is the logo. At least that's what I'm

Doug: 4:16

Well, I don't know. if we're talking about the actual protests, like these organized protests, I think those have been fairly peaceful and the only violence has been, I. when a opposing side shows up looking for a fight, , which has happened. I think some guy drove his car on the sidewalk to,

Mike: 4:31

days ago.

Doug: 4:32

yeah. That's scary. You know? I don't want that sort of stuff. I don't want us to be France.

Mike: 4:39

Yeah.

Doug: 4:39

France will protest about anything and cars will be a burning That's, just a

Mike: 4:43

true. That's, like a time honored tradition over

Doug: 4:46

It's like what you, want to add five minutes to our, daily work schedule?

Mike: 4:50

Let's Burn some cars?

Seb: 4:52

Torture. Torch it all,

Doug: 4:53

Any, car.

Seb: 4:55

burn it all down. Well, you know, a couple people in the chat are saying, , there's , an all hands meeting that took place and we mentioned it in the intro and I think it's maybe a good segue to talk about that for a minute because some of the motivation. For the all hands. I'm sure it was not just the plummeting stock price, but also just seeing all the damage and vandalism to Teslas, to showrooms. So Doug, I think you were the one that watched it first. What was your main reaction?

Doug: 5:24

watched it first. Well, it was interesting. It was about an hour long. I tell you what it really was, was a surprise, , It wasn't really announced ahead of time as far as I knew. And then next thing I know it's happening, it was on March 20th, which was a Thursday. there wasn't anything particularly new about it. Elon was just giving, these updates that we were, , already aware of, , like, Tesla sales total. It was 7 million or something that we talked about before. He expects it to be 10 million relatively soon.

Mike: 5:54

Yeah, good luck with that.

Doug: 5:56

so, it was, I think a reaction to, , all the negative press. I mean, certainly. Elon has a lot of talents, and sadly, one of them is destroying brand value, he had Twitter, which was a well established brand,

Mike: 6:12

Cratered that.

Doug: 6:14

let's just call it a generic X regardless of what you think of what's happened to the site, certainly the brand of Twitter is just evaporated

Mike: 6:21

Yeah.

Doug: 6:21

But Tesla brand, which was, you know, what do you think about Tesla? You think high tech, you think, good for the environment sort of thing.

Mike: 6:29

You think future, you think high tech environment. Yeah.

Doug: 6:32

Now it's really just, the thing is it's not really Tesla. Like all these protests that we're talking about, they're not really protesting Tesla. They're protesting Elon,

Seb: 6:41

Yeah.

Mike: 6:41

but the brand is so intertwined with Elon that it's hard to separate the two.

Doug: 6:45

sure. But it's, not really Tesla. It's Elon. And, the car, that's the main focus of that, of course is the cyber truck., We'll have more to say about the cyber truck later, . But, primarily the purpose of the meeting was to, shore up the stock price. that's it, right? try to reassure people's, faith in the brand. Elon in terms of like what he makes, it's not really about the car sales, it's about the stock price, right? that to me was the main goal. and it, felt a little rich given that, high stockholders, board members, like Elon's brother or whatever, had recently sold like a, hundred million dollars worth of, stock. and others have sold. And he's, telling the employees and everybody else, hold onto that stock, , HODL as they say now, the stock has fallen by , half or something. But if you really look at it though, it's still up from a year ago,

Seb: 7:41

That's right.

Mike: 7:41

it is.

Doug: 7:42

really what's happened is it's given up what it gained from the election. I'm not really a, stock guy or whatever, and I definitely, , don't let it affect my opinion. Once people have money in something, their brain will do all weird things to justify whatever. Whatever opinions they'll form and they'll contort facts, So I try to just stay away from that and have an objective sense of reality. let's see. someone had a comment that says Elon can do some cringey things, but mass revolts against him, like this is just completely pathetic and frankly disgusting. Okay. Well, an opinion. And then another person says, I love my Tesla, but Elon is toxic A.F. and needs to hand the reins to someone more capable.

Mike: 8:27

and I think Chris makes a point right there. It's not Tesla being toxic, it's Elon is toxic at this point. Elon's brand, his own personal brand of Elon Musk is now toxic and it kinda spills over on everything else

Doug: 8:45

back a little bit on that previous comment too. We have freedom of choice and speech and, it's reasonable for someone to not want to buy something you can't be burning stuff, okay? You can't be destroying people's property, all right? But you're, entitled to your opinion.

Seb: 9:01

And you can always vote with your wallet. Right? And I have to say, a lot of people I know have sold their Tesla. There's still a couple that are holding onto them, but I think if someone, especially in the last, let's say three to five years, maybe bought the vehicle, not because they were massive Tesla fan boys. They just wanted an ev.

Mike: 9:21

Yep.

Seb: 9:22

I don't know if they want all that attraction. They don't want the drama. And even in the chat, I'm looking at a couple of the comments coming in. I think there's people with different opinions here, right? Like someone saying cancel culture at its best. Um, so it's hard to talk about these things and not make them political. But what I have to say, what's a little bit amusing to me is that he's managed to piss off the major group of people that have been buying these cars for so long, which is typically left-leaning, liberal, progressive thinking folks. Not everyone is in that camp, certainly, but , that was a big part of the customer base. And for some reason he's just managed to go after these people and alienate them.

Doug: 10:06

it's, too bad that that sort of thing has become political, , as a scientist , and a science guy, right? things like climate change and just basic environmental protection that didn't used to be so partisan. I mean, , Richard Nixon started the EPA, it's only been actually relatively recent, let's say the last. 35 years or so., Okay, sure. Reagan took , the solar panels off the roof of the White House that Jimmy Carter had put up there. Right. but still both parties were, kind of pro environment, particularly coming outta the seventies where we had tons of pollution and,

Mike: 10:40

Well, when you had rivers catching fire, I mean,

Doug: 10:42

catching fire and people dying from smog in New York and LA.

Mike: 10:47

Through that. I'm old enough to remember that.

Doug: 10:49

but I think , what happened was that, you had people like Al Gore that were very pro-environment and you might have a Republican candidate that is also pro-environment, but they're not gonna out pro-environment, the Democrat and so instead they just go the other way. I. deny climate change,, and be pro-business,

Seb: 11:06

Mm-hmm.

Doug: 11:07

Exxon, had evidence of, anthropogenic global warning from, the seventies or so. But, they suppressed that information and, drill, baby drill or whatever. Okay. So now that it, sadly has become a sort of political thing, you're right., the majority of people buying Teslas, from this environmental part, came with this left-leaning, political, , bias. And yeah, Elon has, has managed to piss those folks off. And so, yeah, those folks don't wanna buy the cars anymore. So that's, kind of a problem. Now. I love my car.

Seb: 11:37

Yeah, I do

Mike: 11:38

by the same token, the right side. doesn't wanna buy the cars either.

Doug: 11:41

the people that you lose on the left, you're not gonna gain anywhere near equivalent number on the right. That's just Not gonna happen.

Seb: 11:47

Not significantly for sure.

Doug: 11:49

Yeah. couple other things about that all hands meeting? so, sure. The point was to, I think, boost the stock., But the way Elon does that is by selling the future.. It's not really about the cars. I mean, it doesn't make any sense 'cause the price of earning ratio of Tesla, Is

Seb: 12:05

Oh, it's

Doug: 12:06

company.

Seb: 12:07

two 50? It's like, It's

Doug: 12:08

It's something ridiculous when it's normally Five or something. I don't know. For, for a normal car company.

Seb: 12:13

but yeah.

Doug: 12:14

on that order magnitude.

Seb: 12:16

I did like his demeanor in the video though. That's the Elon I liked, calm, more

Doug: 12:21

wasn't crying.

Mike: 12:22

come on. No cowboy hat. Big buckle.

Doug: 12:24

but he's selling the future. So you can, hear him here.

Elon: 12:26

What does that, that amazing future look like? How about a future where you can have any good or service you want at will? Um, a future of abundance for all, where really anyone can have anything. It, it sounds impossible. It sounds like it's surely such a thing cannot be the case. But I'm, what I'm here. to tell you is that that will indeed be the case, that the future we're headed for is one where you can literally just have anything you want. Like if there's a good or service you want, you'll be able to have it. And, and ultimately everyone in the world will be able to have anything they want.

Doug: 13:09

Now. Okay. You hear that? And, , that sounds like a bit much. Right.

Seb: 13:15

And what's driving this? is it Optimus? Like where's this abundance coming from?

Doug: 13:20

you know, if you listen to the rest of it, he says mainly from AI and from, yeah. Robots. Robots and ai. and he said, similar in the past, at,, other, fan rally type, , things. It just feels, rather naive,, because what he's talking about can't happen without a complete restructuring of our social system. Of our economy. And I would argue, so he is talking about infinite Sustainable abundance is how he puts it, Where everybody can have anything they want, if you really look at it, I mean, we have incredible abundance right now, We do.

Seb: 13:56

Mm-hmm.

Doug: 13:57

William Gibson often gets,, attributed for this, , I'm not sure if he actually said it, but he gets, the credit often is that the future is here right now is just not evenly distributed.

Seb: 14:08

Hmm.

, Doug: 14:08

the top 0.1% own 25% of the world's wealth,

Seb: 14:13

I think it's more than that actually, but Point taken. Yeah.

Doug: 14:15

0.1% of the people own a quarter of everything. the top 1%, own I think 40 or 30% of everything, So, , I don't see that changing. If you look historically, to about, say like 1979 from there on productivity of workers has gone way up. But, , wages haven't kept pace. And then the cost of things like housing and education have gone through the roof, and now, you know, I'm not an economist, But I would think part of the reason for that increased, , productivity is technology, in the eighties, computers start coming into the workplace. More people start having computers at home., And so probably computers, other technologies too, but, , certainly driven by the computer. Productivity has gone up, But the worker isn't, getting the benefit of all that extra productivity, the profit of that goes to the owners of the businesses, the people that are already rich, So you get this increasing , disparity between the super rich and then just normal people With technologies like AI and robots. I mean, , in the meeting, someone asked , is the robot gonna take my job? That was the one question that wasn't like, Elon, you're so great. It was just like a normal sort of question., and he put it like, well, instead of you doing your job directly, maybe you control, , a bunch of robots. you tell a bunch of robots to go do something or whatever. And that would be the job you have., Instead of being an Uber driver, maybe you're in charge of 30 cars or something. that just doesn't make sense to me. Like, it's not gonna be the Uber driver that then tells, , a bunch of cars to go do stuff. It's gonna be probably some other AI at a higher level telling to do things. Or maybe there's a person, , in the loop there. But certainly, hundreds of people . Or thousands or millions, who knows of people aren't needed anymore for those jobs., And , yeah, if we have robots, take those jobs. with ai, of course, , even intellectual type jobs are made redundant, so he's talking about this, sustainable abundance. I think unless you completely change the system, that sustainable abundance means people like him end up owning even more. And many of the rest of us are unemployed with no means of generating income to,, partake in this abundance unless it's socialism or whatever, , or there's some, UBI universal basic income or something., I see a very few, maybe 0.1 or maybe 0.01% of people owning the majority of, the resources. And it's, , the rest of us to scrimp and fight for it. without making any change, that's , the trajectory we're on. And here's this future, this great bright future he is talking about. It's gonna be great and bright for him he owns a company that, makes all that AI stuff, but I don't know that it's, better for the rest of us. And I'll reiterate, right now, we're in a, time of great abundance, probably more abundance than has ever been in the history of man, And yet there is so much, disparity between how we all live. And the people that have, aren't that interested in actually making it better for the rest of us. So, , what's gonna happen there,

Seb: 17:25

Yes. And I would also argue being content with what you have, while that's something I strive for is diametrically opposed to buying stuff., And selling more cars , and commerce., I don't know. I think you're, right, Doug., One of the other things he employees to hold onto their stock.? you'd have to wonder if he's getting margin called. When the stock goes down 50%, there's probably a couple banks that come and knocking.

Mike: 17:53

Probably.

Doug: 17:54

related to that, where he would get margin called a lot of his, , Tesla stock was leveraged to purchase, Twitter. I. Now X Lewis was sick today, but I wanted him to go into it more, but he basically used x AI his AI company to buy X,

Seb: 18:10

Yeah. That's a lot of Xs.

Doug: 18:12

that, was probably outta necessity right now.

Seb: 18:14

Oh,

Mike: 18:16

but that's just shifting debt from one entity to another. Though

Doug: 18:19

sure.

Mike: 18:19

it's a shell game,

Doug: 18:21

But, what is, X worth? Right?

Mike: 18:23

not what they paid for it.

Doug: 18:24

he's, decreased its value, like most people are estimating after he paid, what, 44, billion for it, it was worth maybe 7 billion or so. but now by doing what he did, he's given a valuation of.

Seb: 18:36

35, something like that.

Doug: 18:37

well, it was 45 with, , 12 billion of debt. So it's, , 33 billion and it's just a swap of two companies he owns already. So it's, it's basically an accounting thing, but certainly X AI has, much larger, value, value is all based on people's perception of its future value.

Seb: 18:55

Sure.

Mike: 18:56

but doesn't it come into play? The fact that Elon personally bought X, he financed X and put the deal together. Now it's under the corporate heading of his AI company, so that's no longer Elon's debt directly.

Doug: 19:10

I don't know how all that works. I don't know., It just occurred to me , Seb was saying he might get margin called, I think he probably saved himself from getting margin called , by doing this. So. Just listening to, an episode we did not that long ago, I said, , buying Twitter actually worked out pretty well for him because basically he spent 44 billion to make 200 billion. but I guess , that's now evaporated and he's got his fans still, but certainly a lot of people are more aware of him and don't like him, , particularly for his, Doge activities and, causing people to lose their jobs. So,

Mike: 19:41

when, you, fire 62 million people, you're bound not to get a lot of, uh,, loving letters.

Doug: 19:46

yeah.

Seb: 19:48

well not the, the most bright episode that we've done in a while.

Doug: 19:52

uh,

Seb: 19:54

out there.

Doug: 19:55

yeah, not too much good news

Seb: 19:57

find something positive to end the episode on. And like we said, we're keeping our cars, mine's actually 10 years old in July, which is unbelievable. The thing looks like new drives. Great., Stefan was saying in the chat that he's , in Europe and the sales are way down there too. And I guess we wanted to cover the sales decline.

Mike: 20:16

I can tell you what on the ground looks like here in Southern California. I mean, I've spent the last three weeks reaching out to dealers for a variety of things, every dealer I've talked to, and it's been probably 30 different dealers between Rivian, Audi Chevrolet, lucid down the list. Everybody has got some deal conquest. Bonus incentive. Yeah. If you have a Tesla, bring it in, man. We'll make you a deal. And they're not shy. I mean, they're rang anywhere from two to $5,000, depending who you're talking to, that they'll shave off the price of either a lease or the car directly. And you can usually stack it with the manufacturer's own bonuses. GM's got some killer deals that they're trying very, very hard, to bring people in. Polestar is on Reddit, pushing a $4,000 credit. If you have a Tesla,

Doug: 21:06

So what's the secondary market like then? yeah. So maybe now is a great time to buy used Tesla,

Seb: 21:12

I've seen plaids for as low as 47 grand. those things are such missiles. I'm, worried once they're gonna be 20 K and people can just buy a thousand horsepower,

Mike: 21:24

You got the teenager with a thousand horsepower and no brains.

Doug: 21:27

mean, heck, that sounds kind of cool to me.

Mike: 21:31

but, I'll say this, I've vacillated is keeping my Y, but I've decided recently I'm gonna sit on it. I like the car well enough. I mean, I just did 2000 mile five state road trip with it and it's, arguably the best car I've ever owned for a road trip like that. And that included some 15 hour days behind the wheel.

Doug: 21:48

you know what I've seen? talking about the Tesla brand , it's kind of depressing. It really is.'cause I do like Tesla. I had a, Tesla, dry fit, long sleeve shirt, and I was wearing it meeting up with some friends and, someone was like, oh, you're wearing a Tesla shirt as if it's a bad thing now. I was like, no.

Mike: 22:05

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd recommend a Tesla shirt right now.

Doug: 22:08

And, also what I've seen is that, Someone gets a new Tesla and the people around them are like, you just bought a Tesla. Why'd you buy a Tesla? it's like there's a difference between having the older car versus the refresh. The newer three versus the older three, or the newer Y versus the older Y.

Mike: 22:25

it's like the stickers people are buying, you know,

Doug: 22:27

Yeah.

Mike: 22:28

bought before Elon went crazy. I mean, you know.

Seb: 22:30

Yeah.

Doug: 22:31

I mean, that's not good.

Seb: 22:32

Yeah. I have not put those on my car.

Doug: 22:35

Yeah. I'm not, I'm not putting, I, I don't need to make,

Seb: 22:37

A statement.

Doug: 22:38

my car never was a political statement.

Seb: 22:40

Yeah, exactly.

Doug: 22:42

It was about being a cool car,

Seb: 22:44

Yeah.

Doug: 22:44

and, me enjoying it, me personally,

Seb: 22:47

Mm-hmm.

Mike: 22:48

I love the tech and I like driving it. It's a lot of fun to drive.

Seb: 22:51

And I wanted the performance.

Doug: 22:53

right.

Mike: 22:54

yeah,

Doug: 22:54

I, uh, okay, let's just sort of go over. What's going on with sales and, in different countries? So here in the US a lot of it is because of Elon's work , in Doge and how some people aren't liking that and it's very politically tainted.

Mike: 23:09

That's accurate.

Doug: 23:10

what about elsewhere? in Canada, it's sort of similarly politically tainted, given the threats conquering.

Mike: 23:16

it's, going downhill quickly.

Seb: 23:18

we haven't exactly been all that nice to the neighbors in the north, so

Doug: 23:21

Well, I personally have been quite nice to the neighbors up north, but,

Seb: 23:25

my wife's Canadian, so, hey, I, you know, I'm, I've been, I've been nice.

Doug: 23:29

might get deported.

Seb: 23:30

I may.

Mike: 23:32

it's interesting up there. I mean, Canada has announced that they're basically put a hold on the, , ev refunds that Tesla decided to crank through at the last second.

Doug: 23:40

Could you describe that?, What, happened there?

Mike: 23:42

It was a rebate similar to what we have here in California, that if you buy a Tesla, you get X amount of dollars back.

Doug: 23:48

If you buy an EV

Mike: 23:49

yeah, it was any EV

Doug: 23:50

Uhhuh

Mike: 23:50

and Tesla cranked out thousands of sales in like a week that you couldn't humanly do.

Seb: 23:56

You know, Mike, Doug and I, I think, talked about this via instant message, and I don't think Tesla was cooking the books on that one. I think that they're disorganized and they're like, oh crap, we gotta get, this

Mike: 24:09

I'm not passing judgment. I'm telling you what was done

Doug: 24:12

so they're probably sitting on the paperwork. And then

Seb: 24:14

Procrastinating.

Mike: 24:15

what it did is it sucked up all the money that was available for everybody else.'cause it was a pool of money.

Doug: 24:21

I think what was suspicious about it was that internally, they were going to pause it by a certain date, and that date wasn't announced yet. Somehow Tesla. Managed to,

Mike: 24:32

out.

Doug: 24:34

Yeah. So somehow they found out ahead of time and cranked out the paperwork, just before that deadline. and that pulled money from other manufacturers that expected to get a rebate. used up the pool of money that was set aside for that.

Mike: 24:46

So Canada's reactions, basically, uh, no, we're not giving you that., It's still kind of up in the air whether they're actually gonna give them the money or not, but doesn't look promising right now., Of course, you've got the battery manufacturing plant in Ontario, I believe, it's a factory making batteries in Canada, so it's gonna be hit with the tariffs and whatever else goes nuts., So , there's some interesting things going on over the border with Tesla.

Doug: 25:11

and in Europe, what's happening there? We have our resident European.

Seb: 25:17

Well, Europe is looking extra bleak. So numbers are preliminary, but if you look at January and February, in some markets like Germany and Spain, sales are down as much as 75%. And it's interesting to see the difference just between what's happening in Europe and what's happening in the us. I think, Mike, you were saying in California it looks like, registrations are down up to 30%.

Mike: 25:42

down significantly.

Seb: 25:43

Definitely concerning trends happening across the world and in China also, was it you, Doug? I don't know who said it, but in China I don't think they really care about what's happening in politics here,

Doug: 25:55

I think we talked about an earlier show, like they don't really care about that politics and Tesla is seen as more of, a luxury brand there., It's just that they have major competition from., All these other EV manufacturers , in China, and in fact, there's kind of an overproduction there now, they have so many manufacturers. So probably the government will make some of them, Merged But, BYD is doing great., I wonder how much this is the Chinese model. You know, China has previously they had forced manufacturers to have a partner to work in China, and then China would learn all the secrets

Seb: 26:29

sure.

Doug: 26:30

spin off their own other companies to do stuff. I'm not sure if that happened here. Tesla didn't quite have a partner, but they employed tons of Chinese and BYD is doing great stuff and yet there's so much cheaper.

Seb: 26:40

So much cheaper.

Doug: 26:42

So I think Tesla's still,, seen as a quality brand in China., But, there's tons of Chinese domestic competition there.

Seb: 26:49

Yeah, strong competition and nice cars. Honestly, they're sold in Europe., And , people have a choice now, right? I don't see the numbers recovering in Europe anytime soon. I think the tolerance for BS is much lower by default anyway in those markets. And then, I mean, his antics and the salute and all that stuff, especially in a German market, that's just not something that's tolerated, you know? The other thing to me also is I feel like it took a long time to build up the market.'cause by default, Germans tend to be very skeptical and critical

Doug: 27:26

And they like their own cars.

Seb: 27:28

They have their own car industry, right? Lots of pride in the technology that they've developed. And 10 years ago, and I guess it was similar in the US but there was just so much misinformation around, oh, the range is ridiculous. Why are you driving an electric drill? Right? Like all this nonsense that we probably also heard at some point, but once you've convinced a German, they tend to be very loyal. And so with these antics now and a hundred thousand people having been surveyed

Doug: 27:59

I'm sorry, I just thought something really funny. So,

Seb: 28:01

what's that?

Doug: 28:03

once you convince a German? They get very loyal.

Seb: 28:06

Is there, is there a,

Doug: 28:08

Oh, that's rough.

Seb: 28:09

oh, I, I see where you're going with this, but honestly though, I think the culture is just such that once someone purchased the vehicle, purchased the vehicle, you get these silly questions from people one of my really good friends bought a Tesla. He's got his own IT company. And it's interesting sometimes how success is seen different in Europe than the US. So if you drive an expensive car, , people ask about it and sometimes it's just seen as showing off to a much higher extent that it would happen here. With Tesla, though, it just was seen different 'cause it was technology, right? So the price didn't matter as much. It was more about You're driving something that's kind of cool. Exactly. And you know, now that's all gone. You just can't be seen with those things anymore, and I don't see that trend reversing anytime soon. I just don't.

Mike: 29:00

let me ask you this Seb, if Tesla were to lose Elon as a CEO tomorrow, not that's gonna happen, but let's stretch things extremely. you think people would still equate Tesla in the same negative light?

Seb: 29:13

I don't think so. I think that would probably save the brand, but I don't see Elon leaving and I want the company to do well. also overall, if you look at the delivery numbers they're still cranking out so many cars. It's still impressive, So from a trends perspective, we're trending down now, and I think we covered this on a recent episode too. Tesla, for the longest time of their history, they've , not been, demand constraint, right?, They just couldn't make as many cars as people wanted them, in the volume. So now that's changing, right? Because the demand is going down. They have way more capacity to make these cars. And also that's probably a good segue now to talk about the cyber truck 'cause. They weren't really disclosing numbers, but because of the recall that happened with the panelists flying off because of the wrong glue. We now know how many cars have been salt Mike in total,

Mike: 30:06

it, it was, um,

Doug: 30:07

46 K . 46,000 and change.

Mike: 30:11

Is that what it was?

Doug: 30:12

Yeah.

Mike: 30:12

basically every cyber truck made, that's still on the road, , has been recalled. And it's been recalled for a very precise reason., It's been recalled for what they call the can't CANT rail assembly between the windscreen and the roof on both sides of the truck., The glue apparently breaks down in the environment and stops being glue, and these panels fly off at random times at random speeds. With that said, I've seen pictures of the entire rear quarter panel falling off the truck too.

Doug: 30:43

And the front.

Mike: 30:45

and the front too. Yes. So I have a feeling it's not just those two panels coming down, it's any panel attached to the truck using this adhesive.

Seb: 30:54

Good Lord.

Doug: 30:55

I have to say that's, it's so disappointing. you, have this car, the original promise of the cyber truck was that it's got an exoskeleton, the stainless steel exoskeleton, and that's what they showed, I think form should follow function and instead, they decide this is what this thing is gonna look like. And Okay, the exoskeleton after delay of some years,

Mike: 31:19

can't make it. happen. So

Doug: 31:20

keep the look, but figure out another way to do it. And the way they did it is just gluing , sheet metal on. I remember we were wondering , how it was done and we guessed, oh, it's some kind of automotive adhesive. then, Sandy Monroe was through there,, at the manufacturing place and they basically said, oh, it's actually, welded. And then we have to repolish it where the weld is.

Mike: 31:43

that,

Doug: 31:44

And I think that, that is probably only true at the doors. pretty much everywhere else. It's being glued to The frame.

Mike: 31:52

Doug, which doesn't make sense to me as somebody that's worked in body and fender, , before, is automotive, structural adhesive is not new. They've been using this stuff for 30 years, maybe longer.

Seb: 32:02

Mm-hmm.

Mike: 32:03

Now, granted 30 years ago, the glue wasn't nearly as good as what we have today, but the stuff in the last five years is incredible stuff. It's stronger than the metal.

Doug: 32:12

I mean, they said they used the wrong glue,

Mike: 32:14

But how do you do that? I mean,

Doug: 32:15

I don't know, man.

Mike: 32:16

I mean that's, that's

Doug: 32:18

just be because they chose to use stainless steel, which , most, manufacturers don't do.

Mike: 32:23

could be, I'm wondering if it's how they prep the surface of the stainless on the backside for adhesive. Not so much the glue.

Doug: 32:30

it could be, but what a, what a farce.

Seb: 32:34

Embarrassing.

Doug: 32:35

this was supposed to be this great new method of manufacturing and then maybe all the cars down the line will do this. And it seems like, no, this is actually the only vehicle that's gonna be made this way. And they've kind of learned a lesson as Elon said earlier, we dug our own grave with the cyber truck,

Mike: 32:50

That's gonna be an expensive lesson.

Doug: 32:51

yeah, that's, that's rough.. Now in that meeting, he said it was the bestselling ev truck. Okay, sure., For last year probably, , because people were excited about it, but, you know, 46,000 when I think they wanted to sell, , like a couple hundred thousand.

Seb: 33:07

I think they were saying the goal was 250,000 at some point annually. I just, I, the car is too divisive and Doug, you and I both test drove it, so we can talk about that too for a minute. But I do want to say what's kind of funny to me too about these panels flying off is that when the car came out, I remember this whole debate around you couldn't bend the steel because it was so tough and like so

Mike: 33:30

yeah. It can only be bent a certain way.

Seb: 33:32

right, And so they had this innovative way of building the car

Mike: 33:36

you'd bend it. It won spring back and

Seb: 33:38

Yeah. But it, to me it sounded like it's basically this really simply put together vehicle's very strong. And now at the end of the day, it seems like they just glued this thing on like a matchbox car, you know? So it doesn't, it's kind of funny to me looking

Mike: 33:53

Well, we're talking 46,000 total sales for the cyber truck. Just to put that in perspective, I quickly looked up the Ford Lightning, which sold 35,000 in 2024.

Seb: 34:05

Did it really?

Mike: 34:05

Yeah, it's not that far behind.

Seb: 34:08

true. I don't see those around though. I see like one every now and then.

Mike: 34:13

here, in Southern California. Um,

Seb: 34:16

And I feel like I see the same cyber trucks in my area all the time. Like all of a sudden I just started seeing them. But it's plateaued. it's

Mike: 34:24

yeah.

Seb: 34:24

not getting more, it seems to be the same 10 trucks.

Mike: 34:27

Uh, Stefan says, I wish Tesla had gone to a Rivian type look. Amen.

Doug: 34:33

They could have,

Mike: 34:34

I agree. with that a hundred percent.

Doug: 34:36

they should have done , something, based off of , the X or even the Y, just make a slightly bigger y and if they could reuse parts and make it cheaper, there is certainly a market for a small truck. let me talk a little bit about my test drive though, , and Seb, you too , drove it sometime earlier., It was pretty amazing to drive, like you could really feel the technology. As someone who's only had hardware three,

Mike: 34:59

Oh, that had to have been a step up.

Doug: 35:01

FSD on the thing was pretty nice. It did a really nice u-turn, so confident , and turned on a dime. So I was, pretty impressed with it. All that technology, Tesla needs to update the X and the S and that stuff should go in there.

Seb: 35:16

what stuff

Mike: 35:17

Just overall tech,, Drive by wire.

Doug: 35:19

not the dopey look, not the stainless steel panels. All that's been a bust that has been, , a mistake. But,, the steer by wire, the all obviously,

Mike: 35:30

you'd probably want the 48 volt system

Doug: 35:33

Sure,

Mike: 35:34

pick up the improvements there.

Doug: 35:35

sure. But that, , as I said before, that's the kind of thing the driver doesn't need to know about that. That doesn't really mean anything to the driver.

Mike: 35:41

sorry, I'm a driver. I do need to know about this.

Doug: 35:46

it doesn't make any difference to you, as a driver, but , yeah, that's a better architecture , as it becomes cheaper and becomes more standardized than the rest of , the industry. So I did the test drive. I just went there, signed up, got a test drive, no problem. They let me drive the car around for an hour

Mike: 36:03

Wow. Nice.

Doug: 36:05

This is in Sunnyvale. Well, the guy said 40 minutes, but yeah, I hit little traffic on the way back. It wasn't like there were people beaten down the place to get test drives.

Mike: 36:14

It wasn't a line with tickets, you

Doug: 36:15

Nah, there, were several cars available to test drive and , like I said, this was in Sunnyvale they actually have a couple locations. I guess there's another location that's maybe just for service. And then there's basically this parking lot, where I saw sea, a sea of, of cyber trucks. I don't know if you can see past this gate here, just tons and tons of cyber trucks back there. and what's funny is I walked around and just, I wanted to get a picture. there's a gate there was open Some dude drove up and he said,

Mike: 36:45

what you doing.

Doug: 36:48

he said, you can't be, here. I was like, okay.

Mike: 36:51

Uh, all right.

Doug: 36:51

And then He said it again.

Seb: 36:53

He probably thought you're gonna burn it down.

Doug: 36:54

Nah. Well, again. This was maybe a couple buildings down from where I did the test drive and I was wearing my, Tesla shirt, looks more like an employee shirt than anything else. But the guy was like, you can't be here. And I was like, okay. And, but somehow he, seemed to act like, you know, when people are in authority, they want you to act like you're scared or something. I just said, okay. And I'm walking by , oh, you can't be here. It's like, yeah, okay. I'm, I'm already leaving. What do you want?

Mike: 37:18

Got the point. Yep,

Doug: 37:20

But, anyway, there are a ton I, who's buying these, who's gonna get these? And they're dusty too. They've been there for a while. So, that's not a good sign.

Mike: 37:28

yep.

Doug: 37:29

guess is that's probably other places too.

Mike: 37:31

Yeah, probably not too far off the truth.

Doug: 37:33

Yeah, But it was a nice drive., I tell you what though, I'm driving the area, and just sort of driving around, you know, no one flicked me off or anything, but, there's a woman who was walking her dog, and I saw her look at the car, put her head down and shake her head.

Mike: 37:51

Oh,

Doug: 37:53

she shook her head at me in disapproval

Mike: 37:55

oh,

Doug: 37:55

and a car as an emotional purchase, in some levels, right? you want to take pride in your car, you want it to be cool or whatever.

Mike: 38:02

it's what's a visible symbol of who and what you are.

Doug: 38:05

Yeah. that's,

Mike: 38:06

maybe not. I,

Doug: 38:08

the lady walking her dog, , looked like a nice lady, wasn't like an in your face kind of person, and she wasn't even. to shame me, but to herself, she was like,

Seb: 38:17

Mm, this guy,

Mike: 38:18

this

Seb: 38:19

this schmuck.

Doug: 38:22

oh no man.

Seb: 38:23

Honestly, though, it's easy to always call the cyber truck divisive and controversial, but don't know if the reaction would be that different if you pulled up in a Hummer, EV

Doug: 38:35

Well, that's what it is. No, no. that's what it is., That's why I feel like the cyber truck it was really in the wrong direction for the brand. it was Elon's hubris hubris or whatever to go on about, you know, you have an argument with another car, you're gonna win. And this

Seb: 38:47

I see what you're saying.

Doug: 38:49

is the apocalypse car, but, , the brand should be efficiency and cool tech and not, , mad Max, run over the other guy.

Mike: 38:56

the thunderdome.

Doug: 38:57

Yeah. Thunderdome. Yeah.

Seb: 39:00

Well, that doesn't necessarily align naturally though, with what a, truck is, right? I mean, it's not, the most aerodynamic vehicle on the road. Have you guys seen the scout motors ev truck, by the

Doug: 39:11

Yeah, it looks pretty cool.

Seb: 39:12

Way? I like the way that looks

Mike: 39:14

It's got a great look.

Doug: 39:15

given the association between and the collaboration between Volkswagen and Rivian, it feels like a bit of a rip off the R two though.

Seb: 39:24

A little bit. Yeah. And also there's some, like Bronco vibes too.

Mike: 39:28

know, I've seen the Bronco in real life and it, reminds me of a toy. I'm sorry it's,

Doug: 39:33

saw the Bronco years ago, like in the nineties.

Mike: 39:36

talking the new one.

Seb: 39:37

the new one.

Doug: 39:38

Oh. I haven't seen what the new one looks like.

Mike: 39:41

selling nostalgia and I get it. I mean, there's a good market for that.

Doug: 39:45

I would say like looking at the R2 and the R3 from Rivian, that feels like nostalgia.

Mike: 39:50

Have you driven the Rs? That's The suburban. Like Rivian.

Doug: 39:55

You mean the R1S?

Mike: 39:56

Yes.

Doug: 39:57

I haven't driven it, but I went all around it. It looks pretty cool.

Mike: 40:00

it's like driving this suburban. I

Doug: 40:02

Okay.

Mike: 40:02

they're bringing out this smaller version because the soccer moms, I'm sorry, it's kinda large. Unless you've got a real good reason for it. fun to drive. It's a, lot of fun to drive.

Doug: 40:13

That made sense for Rivian. they were going in a space that was available everybody learned at least at that time that, if you're gonna try to head to head compete with Tesla, you're gonna fail.

Mike: 40:25

yeah. you find the opening that they're not in.

Doug: 40:28

and they'd beat, the cyber truck to market,, so

Seb: 40:30

You know, this is somewhat off topic, but still related. It always blew my mind that Lucid decided to go to market with a sedan after Tesla basically has proven that that was the wrong decision, really, right? Because they needed to get to volume, , production for three and y and not even three. The Y specifically, I never understood, Why lucid copied that playbook and made the

Doug: 40:51

yeah, lucid attempt was to do, , what they considered real luxury.

Mike: 40:56

yeah. High end.

Doug: 40:58

I think they, succeeded in that you get inside the lucid and I'm like, this actually feels like a luxury vehicle. You get inside a Tesla, you get the sense of. Tech and minimalism, not luxury. You get into Lucid the way they've done their displays and the materials that they used. in some options they have a glass roof it feels very nice and very high end. It doesn't have Netflix and all that sort of, kind of entertainment, that sort of thing. Still though it's really expensive , and I see plenty of'em in the richer areas around here. Los Altos, Atherton. yeah. And the richer areas in the Bay Area,

Mike: 41:31

only seen a few here.

Doug: 41:32

I see, , a good number. But in total they've only sold something like 10,000. vehicles.

Seb: 41:37

I know it's, almost nothing,

Mike: 41:39

yeah, it's small

Doug: 41:41

That's rough., I did go visit their showroom when I was in SoCal a while back, and. I think what they're calling the Lucid Gravity. Yeah,

Seb: 41:51

Yeah, that one looks good!

Mike: 41:52

Their SUV.

Seb: 41:53

I think it looks nice.

Doug: 41:54

asked the guy, is this thing real, does this thing actually exist? there were like a few of them out there driven by, basically board members or something.

Mike: 42:02

the blessed few.

Doug: 42:04

one has been sighted in Northern California here. So, will they get to ship that? Will they survive long enough to be able to do that?, Their CEO was Peter Rawlinson, who used to be , at Tesla. I'm sure Tesla has purged them now, but there are videos. He has this erudite, British accent and he is explaining the suspension system on the Model S., and as tends to happen with Tesla. He left right before. Model s deliveries, , for some reason., But anyway, he recently stepped down as CEO at Lucid. I don't know why, but, changes like that happening are a little bit worrisome.

Seb: 42:38

Mm-hmm.

Mike: 42:39

Well, lucid is offering a conquest bonus of your Tesla.

Doug: 42:42

yeah. Okay. I'm sure you could probably get four. Nice used Teslas for the price of one. Lucid.

Mike: 42:48

you can pick up a new Lucid for about 70

Seb: 42:51

They depreciate pretty badly as well, though.

Mike: 42:54

imagine they do.

Seb: 42:55

even Taycans

Doug: 42:57

All EVs,

Seb: 42:57

Exactly. They all do. O

Doug: 42:59

of 'em. They

Mike: 43:00

I think Mercedes has got the worst of everybody right now, but

Seb: 43:03

is, Yeah. And that looks crappy too.

Mike: 43:05

huge hit when you drive the lot.

Doug: 43:08

To do another, sidestep, what's his name? Mueller? He was one of the, early guy at SpaceX. And he now has his own company,, doing something rocket related. And, there was something happening on Twitter because he has a Porsche Taycan. And it's had problems like , the battery had to be replaced or Some other thing had to replaced.

Seb: 43:27

and their service ain't cheap.

Mike: 43:29

Oh

Doug: 43:30

might still be on the warranty, but it was in the shop for like, four months and Steve Jefferson is like, we gotta get this guy in a model S plaid. And he is like, yeah, you know, I got, my wife the model S , but , I like my Taycan. He still likes it. Why does he like it? Because it handles better and it feels like a, sport

Seb: 43:47

They're fun. I've always wanted to talk about that actually on the show is, I'll give you , my very , quick thoughts on when I rented it for a couple of days and I took it on , the Audubon,

Doug: 43:56

a Porsche Taycan.

Seb: 43:57

It was a Taycan Sport Turismo GTS, so it's the station wagon it's really fun. The brakes are insane. It's a Porsche. honestly, even when you, when you're driving in a parking lot, it handles like, I mean, it doesn't handle like a 911, but it, it feels like the steering in a 911 when you're going slow. Definitely reminded me of that.'cause I've been to , the racetrack a couple of times in my city. I think there's a lot of misconception actually , on both sides. And I remember when the Taycan , came out, , they kept getting criticized for the range being so bad. And granted with , the newer generation, I think with the 2024 model, it's improved significantly. But when I had it on the highway, it actually was way more accurate than my car.'cause when I charge to 85%, I get like 200 miles of range and that is gone in l ike no time, like in 30 minutes of driving, I lose like a hundred miles. With the Porsche I was like nonstop pedaled to the metal. I was going 1 55, I think it was limited at that 1 55 miles and it was doing beautifully and I got to where I was going the battery wasn't depleted. So I took note of that 'cause a lot of people hated on their battery technology and I thought it was good.

Mike: 45:20

it's funny you say that., I'm gonna really stir the pot in the same vein. like my Y well enough, but like you just said, Seb, , I'll have 280 miles of range, range air quotes here and puts it around town. You just watch this thing fall like a stone. My bolt, which is a 2021, when it says I have 224 miles of range. This thing runs forever in town. It gets what it says, and my Y doesn't, plain and simple is the bottom line. Even on my road trip, I didn't get what it said. I mean, I had to be rather cautious with my charging.

Doug: 45:55

that was a point of controversy recently since efficiency of the new model Y to be less than the older y watt hours per mile, or however you want to measure that.

Seb: 46:06

And what Stefan is saying right there, this is typical Porsche, right? They under promise, over deliver even on the zero to 60 times. Most of the cars are way faster than what they claim. But there's one thing I have to give, Tesla is, , pulling out win. And that is , the build quality debate. I think the Porsche is only nicer for the first owner. It's not better after a couple of years. if you are someone who buys used. And I like buying pre-owned. My Tesla looks brand new on the inside. I got that Alcantara dashboard. It doesn't creak, it drives great. I've been in a couple Porsches that were not all that great., The door cards, delaminating, it's only nicer for the first owner. They don't always look the same

Doug: 46:52

I feel like that's a thing about German cars, there's some extra complexity that German engineering, which somehow yeah. Maybe over-engineered.

Seb: 47:02

probably.

Doug: 47:02

And so things are complicated and then they start to fail and then it's very difficult to get fixed whereas Tesla has made things as simple as possible just to make, savings. Yeah. Like the interior say is so simple that, whatever

Mike: 47:17

yeah.

Doug: 47:17

to be fixed or tightened up seems pretty

Mike: 47:19

It's all snapped together.

Doug: 47:20

there's, tons of little things and small parts that could just fail in a German car that might be harder to track down and fix.

Mike: 47:27

i took my model three interior apart a couple times to upgrade things and change wiring and whatnot. It was just like playing with Legos. I mean, you un snap it, fix it, snap it back together and off and go.

Seb: 47:37

Nice guys. We said we were gonna end on a positive note. What do you think? We close out on the Mark Rober video and then we bring, we redeem, redeem Tesla.'cause there's been some other

Mike: 47:52

Uh,

Doug: 47:53

Uh, yeah,

Mike: 47:54

it's partially redeemed'cause apparently hardware four seems to be the magic.

Doug: 48:01

you're spilling the beans already. so, Mark Rober, and this is controversy too. honestly, I feel like he is getting attacked more than he should.

Seb: 48:11

Yeah, for sure.

Mike: 48:12

You gotta admit that the hook for the video was great with the, whole Wiley Coyote framing.

Doug: 48:18

The question is, , without lidar, can the car deal with, basically a picture of the road in front of you, because look, if you're just using cameras, and Elon is always saying, well, we don't have laser shooting out of our eyes. And yet we're able to do pretty well., Then why do you need lidar? Well, the thing is your eyes can be deceived. And so cameras can be deceived as well. And so what, Mark did was essentially make a styrofoam wall with a big vinyl printout of what the road looks like up ahead. And it was very much like, , road Runner and Wiley Coyote, where he Tries to paint. a tunnel on the side of a, on the side of a mountain so that the, Roadrunner will smash into it. So, it, went as I expected it would, which was that, the car could not see it. Now there was some controversy about, was he using FSD or not, or was he just using autopilot? I don't think it would've mattered, and that was his argument., And then also they showed that it seemed to disengage right when it got right up on the thing, which to me is, something that we sort of known about for a while that, Tesla , to be able to blame a crash on the person as opposed to on FSD basically, autopilot or FSD will disengage the moment before the collision is about to happen.

Mike: 49:36

This is supervised driving. Yeah.

Doug: 49:39

Yeah. You're supposed to supervise it., So anyway, he did his test. The thing about it though, it seems to me his video was really supposed to be about,, using lidar to map

Seb: 49:47

Space Mountain.

Mike: 49:48

Space Mountain at Disney.

Doug: 49:50

Yeah. Which to me is great. And then he just added this Tesla thing on top of it.

Seb: 49:53

Also, I have to say, I like Mark Robers videos, and I don't think his perspective was to go in and, on Tesla here. I think that lidar, to me, the way that Waymo uses it makes perfect sense in a consumer grade product like a Tesla. I don't want all those hickadeedoos on my cars. I don't want those gadgets. It

Doug: 50:15

You

Seb: 50:15

silly, right? hickadeedoos.

Mike: 50:18

on, hickadeedoos are great.

Seb: 50:21

I don't want all that on my car. I don't mind if I'm calling an Uber and it looks like it's coming from outer space, but you know what I mean?

Doug: 50:28

Yeah.. , , We don't really need to belabor this whole thing. So there have been a couple other, videos that did the same thing. There was a guy that, , did a somewhat more extensive test where he used his model three., That, , was hardware three and , had the latest software updates and it still failed., But he was actually using FSD where part of the argument with Mark Rober was he wasn't using the latest software or whatever., Okay., But then he did a cyber truck, which, , was hardware 4, and the cyber truck was able to see the wall. But I had questions about that test because he did it in one day, and by the time it was starting to become dusk, that wall didn't really look like the road anymore. Like there was a very clear contrast between the sky of the picture and the real sky.

Seb: 51:10

You know that my car would've stopped for that wall, by the way, right? AP one?

Doug: 51:15

Really,

Seb: 51:16

Yeah, of course. I have radar,

Mike: 51:18

Has radar.

Doug: 51:19

Oh, yes, yes.

Seb: 51:20

Also very realistic setting, I have to say, when I drive in my neighborhood, there's always one prankster that puts up these fake walls. So

Mike: 51:27

Hey, you know it's a thing to do. Yeah,

Doug: 51:29

Nice sarcasm.

Mike: 51:32

dummy going across the street. Yeah.

Doug: 51:36

But so now another guy, let's see, YouTube name is Kyle Paul.

Mike: 51:40

Well that looks very realistic.

Doug: 51:42

So he had, , both a hardware three and hardware , , four car , and it looked pretty much still the same time of day. So I think his test was a better test and hardware four was able to see it, , was able to stop. Now, I'm not sure why., did hardware four , get the radar back or no?

Seb: 51:58

Isn't it? The cameras?

Doug: 52:00

So you think it's that the cameras are better? I mean, there's certainly clues.

Mike: 52:03

be the cameras.

Seb: 52:04

contrast much better, , color. I would imagine object recognition would probably be improved on that.

Doug: 52:10

Motion parallax as you're coming in, maybe we can see that stationary object. like, we have ways of telling, right. That, things don't quite line up.

Seb: 52:19

being humans, you

Doug: 52:20

Yeah. Yeah. So it's an interesting test, but look, Elon has said even if Lidar was free, he wouldn't include it, which I think is just a, a really dumb hill to die on. You want different modalities. While I was here, I went in Waymo for the first

Seb: 52:35

Oh, that's cool.

Doug: 52:36

a Waymo. it was great. I had complete confidence in it, now. It does look dopey, like, they have some kind of Jaguar and they just have this whole sensor suite on it.

Seb: 52:45

You mean the hickadeedoos?

Doug: 52:46

they got all the hickadeedoos on there, which includes, lidar, tons of lidar on it. They have, the chicken bucket on the top, and then also in the rear and then in the front corners.

Mike: 52:59

high tech names, you know,

Seb: 53:00

I love it.

Doug: 53:01

that's the colloquial term for it. that, velodyne thing, that is doing, the 360 as opposed to the smaller ones that are stuck in the corners. it also had cameras everywhere. It also had, these things that definitely look like radar to me., I'm pretty sure it's Millimeter wave type radar. So that means, microwave I'm not sure exactly what the frequency is, but from three to say 300, , megahertz, , in terms of the, , energy , or frequency and so with that you can see through fog you should be able to see through rain depending on the size of the droplets and the wavelength of the light. So I think that's critical, especially as Tesla's getting ready to do this, , robot taxi thing. You want these other modalities so that you can confirm, , what's going on. Waymo, Google Alphabet, they're not a car manufacturer. Tesla could include these sensors in a way that looks sleek. They don't look like a bunch of hickadeedoos, as you said. What was that company? Fairday Future, which,, failed., But they had embedded lidar and all these other sensors. yeah, yeah. Faraday future, you guys can look it up. They never really got to manufacturing and they would show off a car every year at, CES in Vegas. But yeah, Tesla could incorporate these sensors. The thing is they do cost money. They're not free yet. but the previous head of Waymo was kind of crapping on the cyber cab, saying that, , it makes no sense as a robo taxi, , 'cause it's too low. people that have trouble getting in and out of it, it only seats two people, you know, and, , if it's actually going to be a proper, , taxi, then the cost of the sensors don't even matter because that gets amortized over, , all the trips that you get paid for, so, yeah, radar, lidar and cameras, I would prefer we had all those things going on, if it's actually gonna be a driverless taxi., Anyway, these,, demonstrations show that,, Cameras alone , are gonna have some limitations and really you need to train for. The corner cases, those are the hardest things you need to be the most prepared for if no one's gonna be behind the wheel.

Seb: 55:08

Totally. Wow, guys, I know, , this was not , the sunniest episode, but I feel like we're ending on a, somewhat positive note, so Yeah, I think so. Let's just, let's just call it that, you know, let's just roll with it. Well anyway, I hope that, , Tesla as a brand will survive., I think there's , some tough times ahead, but, , let's see how things shake out. As always, thanks for joining. You can follow us on the Tesla Motors Club, , website or on Twitter and all of the social media that's out there. So guys, good to see you and I'll talk to you on the next one.